How do we "win" in Iraq?

[Gunit Hussein Sangh]

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gOShdEIUILz345nMuxV2zAfYWDhgD8T2B6U00

From the article:

Retired Army Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, the top commander in Iraq shortly after the fall of Baghdad, said this week he supports Democratic legislation that calls for most troops to come home within a year.

<snip>

"The improvements in security produced by the courage and blood of our troops have not been matched by a willingness on the part of Iraqi leaders to make the hard choices necessary to bring peace to their country," Sanchez said in remarks to be aired Saturday for the weekly Democratic radio address.

"There is no evidence that the Iraqis will choose to do so in the near future or that we have an ability to force that result," he said.

So how do we win?

[CHUQ]

"WIN" is such a vague word.  How do we win?  The war or the politics?

[they call me MR. GRUMPY god damn it!]

must be a rhetorical question, didn't think you wanted to win??

[Gunit Hussein Sangh]

I reckon you take that as a rhetorical question ... but what is winning in Iraq? It isn't just Gen. Sanchez -- every general that bush has fired is saying the same thing. The Iraqi politicians are showing no effort at political reconciliation (and let's not forget failing to pass an oil law guaranteeing obscene profits to our oil companies).

Do we win when we kill everyone in Iraq who hates us? There may not be anyone left if that's the definition of winning.

 

[they call me MR. GRUMPY god damn it!]

the political process in iraq is no more corrupted or ineffectual than here.  i know how i would define winning this war but i curious of your opinion.  i only ask because in reading your thoughts i was  never left with the impression that you wanted to win, thought that this was worth the cost of winning or that we could win?

[Gunit Hussein Sangh]

You're a mind reader heh? 

I never once said I didn't want to win. I have expressed the opinion that we have already lost in Iraq. We lost when we failed to turn over government operations to the local Iraqi's after Saddam was overthrown. We lost when bush appointed incompetent, corrupt, and greedy idealogues to oversee government operations.

If the war was about wmd ... there wasn't any.
If the war was about Saddam ... he's dead.
If the war was about links to terrorists -- there wasn't any. Any link now is due to our occupation of Iraq attracting jihadists who hate our arrogant attitude towards them.
If the war is about killing everyone who hates us -- we'll have to kill everyone in Iraq.
If the war was about establishing democracy in Iraq -- it cannot be accomplished by military force.

So what's left? I know ... "winning" is passing an oil law guaranteeing obscene profits to US oil companies and access to the 2nd largest reserve of oil in the world.

Your turn.




 

[they call me MR. GRUMPY god damn it!]

pretty sure that you never answered the question.  is this a cut and run argument and what are the consequences??  i would define winning as  the establishment of a representative govt in iraq, iraq being able to maintain their own security and border integrity and decisively defeating al queda and iran on the battle field.  won't fall into the quagmire that is wmd/terrorist debate, you will believe what you want to believe.  will say that my attitude toward jihadists is not at all arrogant, i want to kill them all.  we should ask nor give quarter.  that is not all iraq or all anyone but those who would kill me, you and have already killed a whole lot of others.  9-11 meant something to me, i do not blame myself or my country. as for democracy will merely point out that elections in iraq had a higher turnout than elections here.  further our impatience with developments in iraq are rather short sighted given our own history.    almost 100 yrs after our constitution was ratified this country had a bloody civil war killing  600.000 plus.   saddam a brutal thug whose demise was long over due.  last but not least the always to be counted upon reference to oil.  petroleum is the life blood of this economy and a clear national security issue.  so long as  this nation refuses to exploit our own natural resources we will find ourselves fighting for it somewhere else.

[Gunit Hussein Sangh]

We're back to my original question. Gen. Sanchez, as well as many others, are saying the Iraqi politicians are unable & unwilling to establish a representative government. That was the whole point of the surge, but the only thing the Iraqi's were able to agree on was revoking the grant of immunity bremer gave our mercenaries, oops sorry, private security firms. Does winning mean staying there until the Iraqi's sorta, kinda, someday get a round to forming a government that's acceptable to conservatives?

Being able to maintain their own security -- oh how did they ever do that without us  I really have no idea how long boot camp and advanced training takes in today's military, but if my memory serves me right, it took me about six months to go thru basic and then advanced training. How long have we been training Iraqi's? The fact is as fast as we train them, they defect back to their religious sect's militia taking the weapons we gave them. They have the expertise necessary, what they lack is the will. Our military can't give them that.

Defeat aq in iraq -- (psst ... aq was not in iraq prior to our invasion) Our occupation of iraq is the magnet drawing aq into the country. The Kurds and the Shia's don't like them and even the Sunnis in Iraq dislike them ... if we allow Iraqi's to determine their fate, whether it's thru a bloody civil war or whatever .. they'll be able to deal with them. In fact, the Sunnies are already doing that.

As to your comment about wanting to kill all jihadists -- I can understand that feeling. I kinda wish bush had fulfilled his promise to get the bastard who attacked us on 9/11 (who isn't in Iraq). But we're unable to do that because our forces are tied up in our occupation of Iraq.

Cut and run is a nice sound bite. The fact is our military can't solve the problems facing the Iraqi's ... only the Iraqi's can.

We could destroy every national/state forest drilling for oil and gas and not get enough to meet our needs. There just isn't that much oil in the US of A. What we really need is a Manhattan style project to develop an alternative energy source to eliminate the need for mid-east oil. Until then, I reckon our soldiers' blood will be shed for oil in any country that interferes with our god-given right to their oil.

[they call me MR. GRUMPY god damn it!]

again no answer in anything you have written.  why are you so clearly committed to defeat and why are you unwilling to admit the same?  there are no facts in anything that you write.  sanchez has not been in iraq in quite a while.  you have not been there at all and neither have i.  all that is without argument is that the surge seems to have been effective in reducing violence and increasing stability.  reports indicate that while not at a governmental level but at least at a grass roots level people are opting out of violence and personally investing in a future.  again why are you so clearly invested in defeat??  have you contemplated the consequences of defeat and weighed against the ramifications of victory?  cut and run is not a sound bite it is the policy of the dem party and i guess you for despite all of your words you never speak of winning.   
as for oil your response is silly at best and plainly incorrect.  between the artic, off shore drilling, coal and the development of nuclear potential this country does not have to be dependent upon foreign oil.  new energy will be developed as the market directs. before you engage in sanctimonious sermonizing about energy spend a couple of days walking to work and turn the heat off......

[CHUQ]

must be a rhetorical question, didn't think you wanted to win??

If you did not expect an answer, why ask?

[they call me MR. GRUMPY god damn it!]

for the last time the ques was/is  "how do we WIN in iraq"?  unfortunately i find myself alone in the conversation for apparently i am the only one who wants to win.  maybe people would feel more comfortable with can we, should we or what is to win in iraq?  how about a discussion on the immediate and long term implications of losing in iraq?  when the ques is  posed as how do we win then excuse me for thinking that winning is the desired outcome.

[Gunit Hussein Sangh]

Maybe you should scale back your expectations on "winning" in Iraq. Our glorious leader has:

U.S. Scales Back Political Goals for Iraqi Unity

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/25/washington/25policy.html?hp=&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1195948833-q+wNYsUae3zKogJ4cvQ+4g

Our soliders are dying to protect bush's ego and his ego is not worth one soldier's life.

[they call me MR. GRUMPY god damn it!]

at this point, one must conclude that the primary thing you learned in basic training was how to raise your hands and surrender. so, SURRENDER, DOROTHY.

[Gunit Hussein Sangh]

Aawwwhhhh … are we getting a bit touchy now that I’ve pointed out that even bush realizes that he has to scale back his messianic schemes for Iraq?

Your school yard attempt to insult me did just the opposite .. it made me chuckle. I did what every other service man or woman does – follow the orders given to us and tried to do my job the best I could. At least I volunteered and served during a time of war (ok armed conflict). Have you? The only reason I ask is that your name wasn’t listed in the names on the Thank You to Vets post (and if you haven’t and are under the age of 40, there’s still time, you can still volunteer ).

There are causes worth fighting for. Getting the dude who attacked us on 9/11 is a cause worth fighting for. But heck, our glorious leader can’t even do that right. Bin Laden (he’s the guy who attacked us ya know) is still sticking his tongue out at us, the Taliban is present in half the country and more Afghans prefer the Taliban than the good guys (us).

I’m not anti-war … just anti-make-shit-up-and-invade-another-country-for-their-oil war.

[they call me MR. GRUMPY god damn it!]

not touchy at all. just tired of non-answers but will try again.  to win first you have to want to win.  do you want to win?  as for school yard taunts these are effective only if the target believes that at some level they are true.  as for your service thank you and every other man/women who by serving allows all of us to enjoy the blessings of liberty.  in the end though you never fail to reveal yourself:  its all for oil, the evil bush cabal, bush lied soldiers died etc... this is nonsensical.  regardless we are there now and the stakes are high.  as we see new strategy bearing fruit do we pull out now?  is there a moral responsibility to stand with those iraqis who have stood with us?  do we believe that our enemy attacks us because of where we are and not who we are?  when in the history of man has weakness in the face of the enemy ever secured peace...