religion and politics

[pragmitician]

Religion shouldn't be in politics at all. It has no place. By governing a nation with any religion, or the a basis of that religion, you are automaticly saying that your religion supercedes all others. The pursuit of religion in politics is quixotic. Religion also interferes with the judgement of freedom vs. your personal conviction on what is right and wrong. Everything deserves a pragmatic approach.

[Peter1469]

So can you give me a moral code that somehow doesn't resemble those created in the Judaeo / Christian West?

[pragmitician]

It doesn't matter if its similar to ancient moral codes, its just being a responsible person. Yes, you shouldn't murder, yes, you shouldn't steal. It is just the social code of conduct now. I'm sure if you check ancient roman and greek laws, or hammurabi's code, then you will find something similar. You don't need religion to decide what is right and wrong.

[Peter1469]

But isn't right and wrong fairly constant across the board?  If that is your argument I don't have a problem with it. 

[bored]

Many people look to their spiritual leaders within their church for guidance on all matters of life. Politics too. Since birds of a feather flock together it isn't unusual for a person to be that outside of the general beliefs of what is being preached during the sermons. If someone doesn't like what they hear, they are not obligated to remain and I don't believe they would stay. I don't have a problem with politics being discussed in someones church so long as they don't hurt others around them.

[pragmitician]

Yes, wrong and right are generally the same, but when you come to the specifics, religion tends to cut in on the specifics of freedom. If Christianity per-say, was the religion, as many say, that governs America, then if that was really taken to heart, being intoxicated in any situation would be illegal, as well as worship of other religions. Things such as gay marriage too would be completely illegal.

[Peter1469]

Yes, wrong and right are generally the same, but when you come to the specifics, religion tends to cut in on the specifics of freedom. If Christianity per-say, was the religion, as many say, that governs America, then if that was really taken to heart, being intoxicated in any situation would be illegal, as well as worship of other religions. Things such as gay marriage too would be completely illegal.

I am not sure that you have a clear grasp on Christianity.  It is not a monolith.  Catholics have no prohibition against alcohol, and neither do most Christian sects.  Sure some fundamentalist churches preach against alcohol, but I don't think that any of them have advocated, at least recently, that alcohol should be banned in the United States. 

Likewise I have never heard any serious Christian religious leader demanding that the worship of other religions must be banned.  In fact, most modern Christian sects are very liberal in this regard and bend over backwards to accommodate other religions. 

I imagine that some Christians would wish to make gay marriage illegal, but whether they could do that within the parameters of the Constitution is questionable.  But many of the more liberal churches would support gay marriage or more likely a civil equivalent. 

I am surprised that you didn't mention abortion.  I imagine that a good number of Christians would support the overturning of Roe, but that doesn't make abortion illegal. It simply puts the matter in the hands of the several States, where according to our Constitution it belongs.  I doubt that very many states would make abortion totally illegal.  I imagine that most would have some level of restrictions and a few would have no restrictions other than what is currently in place under Roe.  One or two may say any abortion is a-OK in any situation.

This is the 21st Century, not the Middle Ages.  You really don't have to worry about a Christian theocracy in America.  It is a non-issue. 

[pragmitician]

I have been in different churches my whole life; I feel like i have a pretty decent "grasp" on it. No church would condone gay marriage. And the Bible clearly speaks out against drunkeness. Catholisism approves of drinking though, but you will find many traditional churches in the Bible belt. I'm not saying prohibition, but intoxication. I suggest you meet some self-righteous born-again Christians that believe that Christianity is the only right path in life. I have seen many. What would happen to atheism too?

[Peter1469]

I stand corrected: you said that Christians would outlaw intoxication and I focused on alcohol in general.  Well to be fair, public intoxication is already illegal everywhere (although it is unevenly enforced).  Do you argue that Christians would advocate random home inspections to make sure that there is no "private intoxication" going on?

I am not sure how you can state that no Church would condone gay marriage.  Look at the American Episcopalian Church: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Episcopal_Church_in_the_United_States_of_America

Some Episcopalians support gay marriage and gay priests.  Here are some links from the official church website: http://www.episcopalchurch.org/cps/rde/xchg/episcopal/tec-search.xsl/tec-search-results.htm?qry=gay&dept=all&srp=tec-search-results.htm&rdt=liveserver

Also the Lutherans are all for gay marriage: http://www.christiannewswire.com/news/536175985.html


Atheism?  What would happen to it?  Nothing whatsoever.  I am not sure how you think anything would happen.  Provide some examples please. 

BTW I haven't been in a Church (as a celebrant) for over 10 years. 

[pragmitician]

I see what you are saying about these churches, but if I read correctly, they state that only individuals blessed same sex unions, not the church in general. Also, I'm just saying, there would be more restrictions than there are, but regardless or how reasonible it would be, if you make a decision that is said to be based off religion, then you are saying your religion supercedes others. That is the root point.

[Peter1469]

I see what you are saying about these churches, but if I read correctly, they state that only individuals blessed same sex unions, not the church in general. Also, I'm just saying, there would be more restrictions than there are, but regardless or how reasonible it would be, if you make a decision that is said to be based off religion, then you are saying your religion supercedes others. That is the root point.

I simply disagree.  I understand your fears- I hear them often.  I just don't see any current examples.  The last great demonstration of your concerns was prohibition- and that was repealed by America.  (And it made a lot of people rich violating the law). 

[they call me MR. GRUMPY god damn it!]

let us say that you based you decisions on a code of conduct and values.  how is that different than basing your decisions upon the doctrine of your faith?  religion provides man with a moral governor, without which he is but a "nobel savage absent the nobility."

[pragmitician]

ok, this needs quite a bit of clarification. I never said i was afraid of anything, or prohibition, that was never the point of the discussion. I'm not saying that we should try to prevent this from happening, or saying that there is even a possibility of a "Christian take over." Politics based with religion in the 21st century is immoral. You can provide examples from history all you want, but truth be told, in our modern society, we pretty mch have the base of it set, we don't need an ancient code to set the standards for us. We have people like you to tell us what is right and wrong.

[Peter1469]

Don't look at me to be the judge of right and wrong.  I can help you come to the correct conclusion on your own.

Here is a good book to explain morality:

http://books.google.com/books?id=P4URGmR1R6QC&printsec=frontcover&dq=First+Principles+hadley+arkes&sig=ACfU3U03Ch_-TrZaAYNIykyF1_kgPlLyug#PPR12,M1

It is not a religious basis morality, but it does advocate for universal principles.  And this link it a PDF version- no need to spend any money. 

Enjoy. 

[pragmitician]

You can read all the books you want, but those are just basic standards of humanity in a modern society. We don't need religion to govern a country now.