religion and politics

[they call me MR. GRUMPY god damn it!]

when, where, how and how much religion is acceptable in politics.  churches have historically been places of political discussion and often the well spring of social change in this country.  that having been said is there some invisible line, broadly acknowledged that politicians do not cross using their faith to support political ambitions or agendas?  as i have watched gov huck's campaign unfold it is apparent that his platform consists only of his faith, lacking any real substance.  the latest ad wishing all a merry christmas is a clear attempt to further promote himself as the christian candidate.  the cross is a clearly contrived special effect, the only doubt being whether during the commercial he actually, symbolically places himself upon the cross and thus becomes the messiah?  those who have read my postings know that i am not a supporter of the huckster and so check me if i am wrong and further where should we as voters draw the line?  as these tactics have proven effective in iowa likely they will be refined and repeated else where.   

[Vermouth]

Grumpy, this is an interesting question. I will have to ponder it.

[SDML]

Why do you say they are effective?

[they call me MR. GRUMPY god damn it!]

forever we have seen pols attend churches to gain local support and run to church when in trouble.  the huckster has elevated the impact of religion in politics by blatantly running as the christian candidate and nothing else.  this strategy has propelled him to the front of the rep field in the early states.  yes the media has been uniquely quiet about this guy's record and campaign tactics, still it is hard to argue with the results.

[SDML]

I've not seen any results, yet. So he's up in some traditional pols - that demonstrates that conservatives with land-line phones like him. I wonder what the demographic is on conservatives with land-lines?

It's a more diverse & volatile landscape than it was even 4 years ago. While Huck has come up in the text message polls following debates, he has failed in cell phone polls, internet polls, internet polls, e-mail pols, on-the-ground straw polls, and the like. It's impossible to say with any certainty, but I think he's a flash in the media pan.

If there is one trait among conservative, it's that they are...well...conservative. Romney will fail despite the money, as will Huck. Giuliani, despite sagging polls, will remain a front-runner. McCain will show strong early and die again, but Ron Paul and Fred Thompson will do surprisingly well.

The REAL race will involve Paul, Thompson, & Giuliani. This time next year, no one will even remember Huckabee's unmemorable run.

[they call me MR. GRUMPY god damn it!]

If there is one trait among conservative, it's that they are...well...conservative. Romney will fail despite the money, as will Huck. Giuliani, despite sagging polls, will remain a front-runner. McCain will show strong early and die again, but Ron Paul and Fred Thompson will do surprisingly well.

but are republicans conservative?  and if the republican electorate is conservative then why do they elect or tolerate betrayal by their representatives??  it may well be that the legacy of bush will be the long term fracturing of the republican party.

[conley]

If there is one trait among conservative, it's that they are...well...conservative. Romney will fail despite the money, as will Huck. Giuliani, despite sagging polls, will remain a front-runner. McCain will show strong early and die again, but Ron Paul and Fred Thompson will do surprisingly well.

but are republicans conservative?  and if the republican electorate is conservative then why do they elect or tolerate betrayal by their representatives??  it may well be that the legacy of bush will be the long term fracturing of the republican party.

if you mean fiscally conservative than no. reagan wasn't fiscally conservative, h.w. bush, and w. bush weren't either. i've heard legends of fiscally responsible republicans but never seen one. kind of like unicorns.

[SDML]

Barry Goldwater.

[Vermouth]

I'm trying to convince myself that there's no way Huckabee could be elected. But I scoffed at the idea that someone as unprepared as Bush would be elected in 2000 and look what happened. Evangelicals have taken over the Republican party ... that's the only explanation. They are a larger voting block than either conservatives or moderates. Talking about Jesus worked for Bush and it's obviously working for Huckabee. It played out the same 8 years ago (US News, 12/6/99):

It's been generations since so many politicians have talked so much about Jesus--and their personal relationship with him. Just back from a jog, George W. Bush is game to talk more. He slings a towel over his shoulder and plops into a seat on the patio of the Texas governor's mansion. "What are we talking about?" Faith. "Good. I like talking about faith." Five minutes later, he's discoursing on the Crucifixion and whether Jews can enter heaven. ("Governors don't decide that.")
...
Centrist Democrats like Gore have made much of breaking with their party's heritage of staunch secularism. Or as a Gore adviser clumsily announced, "The Democratic Party is going to take back God this time."
...
But does the public crave this much talk about faith? While polling suggests a resurgence of religiosity, history suggests an aversion to gaudy displays of faith. Democratic contender Bill Bradley, for one, is hoping for a backlash. At every turn, Bradley has declined to discuss his beliefs and, according to an aide, he hopes to turn his silence into an electoral virtue: "There's still a sizable segment of our party that isn't comfortable with politicians who wear Jesus on their sleeves."

And even Bush, the guy who was quoted as saying "I feel like God wants me to run for President." (1999), who proclaimed Jesus Day in Texas (2000), and who said "I trust God speaks through me. Without that, I couldn’t do my job." (2004), thought it could be taken too far. From the same article from US News:
Bush, meanwhile, is railing against a pernicious trend in politics: "Vote for me--I'm more religious than my opponent: It's a new motto that people ought to be concerned about."

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/991206/archive_003572.htm

[rickraff]

Politics and religion should never be mixed.  A religious person should keep their faith beliefs to themselves.

We don't need a Bible thumper as president!  We need a person who can solve America's problems; and there are many!

[they call me MR. GRUMPY god damn it!]

Politics and religion should never be mixed.  A religious person should keep their faith beliefs to themselves.

We don't need a Bible thumper as president!  We need a person who can solve America's problems; and there are many!

a religious don't ask don't tell?

[tmbtc]

Politics and religion should never be mixed.  A religious person should keep their faith beliefs to themselves.

We don't need a Bible thumper as president!  We need a person who can solve America's problems; and there are many!

There are many people who can solve America's problems? And Shrill Hill is one of them? Wrong on both counts.

[Vermouth]

Politics and religion should never be mixed.  A religious person should keep their faith beliefs to themselves.

We don't need a Bible thumper as president!  We need a person who can solve America's problems; and there are many!

There are many people who can solve America's problems? And Shrill Hill is one of them? Wrong on both counts.

Hahaha Shrill Hill ... I hadn't heard that one. I'm still having nightmares about that maniacal cackle at the last debate.

I have to say I agree with Rickraff tho.

[Gunit Hussein Sangh]

An interesting interview with huckabee on cbn ...

http://www.cbn.com/CBNnews/290439.aspx

Huckabee: There is a level of elitism that has existed, the chattering class if you will who lives in that corridor between Washington and Wall Street and they sort of live in their protected world, and frankly for a number of years many of them thought of people like me - whether it was because we were evangelicals or because maybe we were out from the middle of America. They were polite to us. They were more than happy for us to come to the rallies and stand in lines for hours to cheer on the candidates, appreciated us putting up the yard signs, going out and putting out the cards on peoples doors and making phone calls to the phone banks and - really appreciated all of our votes. But when they got elected, behind closed doors, they would laugh at us and speak with scorn and derision that we were, as one article I think once said "the easily led." So there's been almost this sort of, it's okay if you guys get a seat on the bus, but don't ever think about telling us where the bus is going to go.

Brody: That's a lot to overcome.

Huckabee: But you know what's happening, my campaign is now, a person has bubbled up - not from the chattering class. I've never been their favorite. I wasn't their pick. I wasn't the one they early on said "Well he has the money, and he has the name and the ancestry." What we have in this country is this growing sense of tension where there are people would just as soon, guys like me, just continue to support candidates and make sure they get elected. But we don't really want to have to hear from guys like me after elections - and now that we're actually, potentially going to be the nominee - it's making some folks uncomfortable 'cause they don't know what we're going to do.



Say what you will about Huckabee, but he's got their number on this and I applaud him saying it. Republican elites are willing to pander endlessly for evangelical votes, evangelical money, and evangelical organizing , but once the elections are won they think of them, in Peggy Noonan's recent words, as "the idiot vote." Unless evangelical interests coincide with the money-con wing of the party (as they do with judges, for example), they get little more than a few symbolic bones tossed their way (ie things like Terri Schiavo, attempts to pass anti-gay marriage legislation, attempts to pass laws allowing the 10 commandments to be plastered all over creation, etc).

I'm delighted to see evangelicals finally figuring this out and getting ready to turn their longstanding misgivings into out-and-out rebellion. It's about time this battle got fought in the full light of day.

[Vermouth]

Too bad the Evangelicals haven't figured out that Huckabee is using just them as much as the "elite" Republicans.