The Beef on abortion, gay rights, and religion

[Peter1469]

I agree with you.  I think that is the basis for most arguments against gay adoption.  However, I imagine that a stable two parent gay couple would look a lot like a traditional nuclear family to a study to actually looked at how the kids turned out (as citizens, not their sexual orientation.) 

[spunkloaf]

I agree as well.  It would be interesting to know.

But I doubt any such study would be greatly publicized..

[Mr. Dirlewanger]

Note the above responses in no way rely on religious belief. The sole reason religion is often tied to these issues is because religion more often than not condones the traditions of society (in the case of marriage) and embraces the "thou shalt not kill" doctrine (abortion) in one way or another.

Plenty of non-religious people agree with conservative values, too.

Thank you, SDML. It has been explained time and again to Spunkloaf that religion need not play any part at all. As a matter of fact, I've avoided using any religious arguments when discussing gay marriage and/or abortion for the very purpose of drawing Spunkj out of his ideological shell.

[they call me MR. GRUMPY god damn it!]

I agree with you.  I think that is the basis for most arguments against gay adoption.  However, I imagine that a stable two parent gay couple would look a lot like a traditional nuclear family to a study to actually looked at how the kids turned out (as citizens, not their sexual orientation.) 

a stable relationship where both partners of demonstrably mentally ill.   might they do as good a job as what passes for parenting today.....maybe.  is it a cheaper route than institutions raising kids....probably.  is it normal, healthy or desirable.....no.

[SDML]

Opinions up to this point have been reasonably supported. Please provide support for your above views, Grump.

[they call me MR. GRUMPY god damn it!]

observation over time.....the basis of sceince   homosexuality can only be viewed as "normal" if you believe the species is designed to self-extinguish.  regardless, next time you don your chaps to go march in a gay pride parade, take a look in the mirror and ask yourself....no, not if you feel pretty, try to be serious.  ask yourself if what you see in the mirror is normal?

[SDML]

observation over time.....the basis of sceince   homosexuality can only be viewed as "normal" if you believe the species is designed to self-extinguish. 

Witticisms are not support for your positions.

You cite 2 entirely different things:

1) Observation

2) Logic

Your second assertion is, of course, a false dichotomy (and thus, invalid). Even if it weren't, however, it is disallowed in science - logic is used in the processes in a general way, but experimentation/observation rules the day (thus rendering your claim invalid).

Which brings us back to your first assertion. In it, you don't actually provide support for your position. But if one were to use observational data, one would learn very quickly that homosexual behavior is so widespread in human culture (not to mention with non-human primates) & throughout human history as to easily be considered a staple of the human species.

Throughout recorded human history, specific cultures & societies have often suppressed, excepted, or treated as irrelevant certain sexual orientations and behaviors. We've allowed some, criminalized others, and then changed our minds. There was a day in America when lesbian scenes in movies would NOT have been considered cool (hahaha!). I'm not certain how malleable sexual orientation is, but I know how malleable society's mores are.

Be that as it may, homosexual behavior is as normal as the rising sun.

That brings us to the discussion of whether or not it is within THIS society's best interest to allow gay marriage (by whatever name).

[they call me MR. GRUMPY god damn it!]

that is just silly.  is this what you and the gals chat about in between strutting and adjusting your makeup   clearly homosexuality is contrary to species design, unless of course the species is designed to self-destruct.

[SDML]

Silly boy - repeating a baseless assertion (even loudly) does not make it true.

Homosexuality in human society, depending on your source, runs at roughly 5% of the population (some as low as 2%, others as high as 10%). No animal will go extinct with even twice that rate. Your assertion, in addition to being a false dichotomy (at 10%, it could just as easily be Mother Nature's built-in population control, for one example, or a mechanism to defuse aggressive behavior within the tribe/band/pack, for another), stands on the shakiest of logical foundations.

Outside of human behavior, it is worth noting that homosexual and bisexual activity is common in a variety of vertebrate species, from monkeys to birds to warm-blooded fish to worms. Bonobos, a type of chimp that is the closest relative to humans, exhibit a rate of near 100% bisexual behavior. Homosexual and bisexual behavior is so common in the animal kingdom you'd be hard-pressed to cite a species that does NOT engage in these practices.

None of this has ANY implications on the morality of homosexual or bisexual behavior, of course (chimps also engage in rape and murder). But it does demonstrate that the practice is extremely common throughout nature...and that you haven't supported your claims of "abnormal" or "mentally ill" or "biological suicide" with a shred of evidence - just a loud and repetitive voice.

[Mr. Dirlewanger]

What is interpreted as homosexual behavior in the animal kingdom should not be confused with a  human homosexual orientation. A homosexual instinct (i.e. a homosexual orientation) would preclude heterosexual activity. It is rare for this to occur outside our species. Grumpy is correct in noting that homosexuality would appear to be in conflict with Nature's design.

I will agree with you that human homosexuality is normal. It is as normal as Down's Syndrome and pedophilia.

[they call me MR. GRUMPY god damn it!]

What is interpreted as homosexual behavior in the animal kingdom should not be confused with a  human homosexual orientation. A homosexual instinct (i.e. a homosexual orientation) would preclude heterosexual activity. It is rare for this to occur outside our species. Grumpy is correct in noting that homosexuality would appear to be in conflict with Nature's design.

I will agree with you that human homosexuality is normal. It is as normal as Down's Syndrome and pedophilia.

[trex]

observation over time.....the basis of sceince   homosexuality can only be viewed as "normal" if you believe the species is designed to self-extinguish. 

Witticisms are not support for your positions.

You cite 2 entirely different things:

1) Observation

2) Logic

Your second assertion is, of course, a false dichotomy (and thus, invalid). Even if it weren't, however, it is disallowed in science - logic is used in the processes in a general way, but experimentation/observation rules the day (thus rendering your claim invalid).

Which brings us back to your first assertion. In it, you don't actually provide support for your position. But if one were to use observational data, one would learn very quickly that homosexual behavior is so widespread in human culture (not to mention with non-human primates) & throughout human history as to easily be considered a staple of the human species.

Throughout recorded human history, specific cultures & societies have often suppressed, excepted, or treated as irrelevant certain sexual orientations and behaviors. We've allowed some, criminalized others, and then changed our minds. There was a day in America when lesbian scenes in movies would NOT have been considered cool (hahaha!). I'm not certain how malleable sexual orientation is, but I know how malleable society's mores are.

Be that as it may, homosexual behavior is as normal as the rising sun.

That brings us to the discussion of whether or not it is within THIS society's best interest to allow gay marriage (by whatever name).

How bout we return to the love of liberals SCIENCE.

The cornhole (ass canal) was scientically designed for feces (crap) to exit the body.  It is a waste portal plain and simple.  The vagina was designed perfectly to accept the male and with a purpose other than pleasure.

So one can conclude through science and logic that homosexuals cannot reproduce (good or bad?.....uuuhhhhh  good) therefore one can conclude that because they cannot reproduce they probably were meant to be here in the first place...LOGIC at its best.

[SDML]

What is interpreted as homosexual behavior in the animal kingdom should not be confused with a  human homosexual orientation. A homosexual instinct (i.e. a homosexual orientation) would preclude heterosexual activity. It is rare for this to occur outside our species. Grumpy is correct in noting that homosexuality would appear to be in conflict with Nature's design.

I will agree with you that human homosexuality is normal. It is as normal as Down's Syndrome and pedophilia.

Homosexual behavior is homosexual behavior, regardless of whether the animal in question is human or not. A discussion of orientation is a separate issue. The fact remains that bisexual and homosexual behavior are common in humans and non-humans alike.

Down Syndrome is a chromosomal disorder and pedophilia is a psychological disorder. An animal with an extra chromosome would not survive in the wild. Neither would an animal that breaks a pack taboo.  Wolves, apes, and other species are known to kill their own if one of them violates an "instinctive law". None of these kill their own for homosexual or bisexual behaviors.

Humans have engaged in homosexual and bisexual behavior for all of our recorded history, from all cultures known.

[SDML]

How bout we return to the love of liberals SCIENCE.

The cornhole (ass canal) was scientically designed for feces (crap) to exit the body.  It is a waste portal plain and simple.  The vagina was designed perfectly to accept the male and with a purpose other than pleasure.

So one can conclude through science and logic that homosexuals cannot reproduce (good or bad?.....uuuhhhhh  good) therefore one can conclude that because they cannot reproduce they probably were meant to be here in the first place...LOGIC at its best.

Or return to the love of conservatives: Tradition.

Traditionally, humans engage in homosexual & bisexual behavior.

Or return to the conservatives' rejection of science....as you have done above.

Your logic is seriously flawed.

[they call me MR. GRUMPY god damn it!]

What is interpreted as homosexual behavior in the animal kingdom should not be confused with a  human homosexual orientation. A homosexual instinct (i.e. a homosexual orientation) would preclude heterosexual activity. It is rare for this to occur outside our species. Grumpy is correct in noting that homosexuality would appear to be in conflict with Nature's design.

I will agree with you that human homosexuality is normal. It is as normal as Down's Syndrome and pedophilia.

Homosexual behavior is homosexual behavior, regardless of whether the animal in question is human or not. A discussion of orientation is a separate issue. The fact remains that bisexual and homosexual behavior are common in humans and non-humans alike.

Down Syndrome is a chromosomal disorder and pedophilia is a psychological disorder. An animal with an extra chromosome would not survive in the wild. Neither would an animal that breaks a pack taboo.  Wolves, apes, and other species are known to kill their own if one of them violates an "instinctive law". None of these kill their own for homosexual or bisexual behaviors.

Humans have engaged in homosexual and bisexual behavior for all of our recorded history, from all cultures known.

true and this behavior has been both discouraged and shunned.  has not pedophilia been represented historically???  why do you judge that pedophilia is a psychological disorder but homosexuality is not??