Jump start

[conley]

You can't just destabilize the region and decide it wasn't worth it after all and leave. It's irresponsible.

very true

and besides, even if a sustainable energy source is found (meaning we no longer rely on middle east oil) the middle east will remain a threat to national security due to the years of history between our two cultures/religions/societies/civilizations. i dont think we can just apologize to obl and al queda and hope that they forgive the slaughter of their civilians and the occupation of their lands (and im not saying we should do that)

I'm sure AQ isn't shedding tears over dead and maimed civilians. Nor are we it seems...touche! (a little preemption...)

They hated uis before Iraq, they hate us now, they'll hate us later.

Why does the evil Al qeada, which nobody ever heard of prior to 1998, hate us anyway?

Please be realistic with an answer.

I didn't have AQ in mind specifically. As I've said before, they don't like outside powers getting involved in their affairs. The reality is that outsiders have been and will continue to be involved in their affairs until no one cares about their oil. Oil is a strategic resource (a resource first exploited by outsiders and now used primarily by outsiders to run the machines outsiders create) and no one will tolerate any state of affairs that will limit access to it. This will end when alternatives to oil are deemed worthwhile and imperative.

How's that?

I might also add that AQ and it's laughably backward ideology are not only evil but the primary reason that Arabs will eventually be consigned to the dark ages they apparently long for. At some point, Whitey and the evil joOoOow won't have any reason to bother with their desert home.

i agree with what mister d wrote above

my understanding is that al queda got all upset because after saddam invaded kuwait us military forces set up bases in saudi araba (holy land for muslims). never mind that a lot of middle east governments wanted the us and the coalition there, and if the group of nations hadnt stepped in then saddam could have repeated the process with other countries

even if you discount that, the united states acted in its own best interests to preserve stability in the region for the purposes of maintaining a vital resource. and it isnt only the us whose economy runs on oil, all western civilization as well as those middle eastern governments run on oil.

if you want to see how much love and attention a group of arabs get without oil as a bargaining chip just look at the palestinians, abandoned by their own "brothers" (the other governments -- we support you but no you cant live here). the whole al queda looking out for the palestinians is laughable in my opinion and just another way to capitalize on the anti west feelings of a desperate poor group of people.

if al queda expects the us government not to act in the best interests of the united states well then i guess they are going to be disappointed. i dont know of any government that doesnt seek to protect its nation and the interests of that nation, even if it means going to war. the thing that pisses me off is that this administration , republicans, and american foreign policy all treat our citizens and the rest of the world like we are complete idiots and that the purpose of this mission is 'to spread democracy'. thats what pisses me off the most.

[conley]

as for us just leaving the region and hoping that does the trick i just dont see it...if someone murdered your wife, your kids, your husband etc would you just 'let it go' ? of course not. al queda and other terrorists will continue to target the us for the foreseeable future. the sad reality is that the killing of iraqi civilians has been the best recruiting tool for al queda ever and yes that is going to a long time (generations) to overcome. we cant just say my bad and take it all back. we are and will continue to be at war :<

[AC]

It's not enough to hope that some good will come of the Neocon-caused debacle that is Iraq.

Those that planned this war so poorly couldn't care less if Iraq is ever stabilized, nor if "democracy" ever takes hold.

You cannot understand the ideology of Straussians unless you actually read them.

[AC]

Here's that article, Mr. Dirlewanger:

(Though it seems out of place here now)



Saturday, January 19, 2008
Economic Tsunami: A Perfect Storm Threatens US Economy
Highly leveraged US expansion, growth and empire are about to be swept away like a bamboo hut. As China leads the world in dumping dollars, the US appears to have exhausted the means by which it can continue to leverage or finance expansion and imperialism.


Bush could not have picked a worse time to ratchet up his anti-Iran rhetoric. China's disenchantment with US dollars is a reaction to Bush's bellicose rhetoric. Iran's strategic position was recognized by Alexander the Great, significantly the last "conqueror" to have successfully invaded from the west.

As this blog reported recently, Bush promised that the US would join an Israeli nuclear strike on Iran. It is impossible to tell if the US rhetoric is in response to Iranian threats to dump dollars or Iran's response to Bush's promise to join an Israeli nuclear strike on Iran. The GOP seems unconcerned as Bush's big mouth continues to make the rest of world jittery.

Bush believes that a nuclear war can be won! A nuclear war of any size will most certainly trigger a wave of cascading chaos that respects no borders. Already, Russia has warned that an attack on Iran will be considered an attack on Russia and a Chinese sub recently popped up undetected in the midst of the US Fifth Fleet. As this blog reported several months ago, China has the ability to put a nuclear sub off the US east coast undetected!

We were warned. In 2005, Treasury Secretary John Snow acknowledged economic growth was limited to a small percentage of Americans. Bush's base? Some things never change. Only a tiny elite experienced what they alone have dubbed the Reagan prosperity. A "prosperity" so limited is not prosperity; it is merely a redistribution of dwindling wealth. If poorer folk lost ground, to whom did wealth trickle? The GOP knows that what it says about economics is wrong. They will say whatever they think they can get you to believe.


A statutory debt limit of $8.184 trillion was reached in mid-February of 2005. The total collapse of the US economy was averted but only because no other country wished to be sucked into the US black hole. The dollar actually retained some value amid fears of a worldwide economic catastrophe.

China had been propping up the dollar so that US consumers could continue buying cheap Chinese crap, primarily via WalMart and other monstrous legacies of Globalization. At the time, US debt was some $8.162 trillion dollars and has only gotten bigger. US credit abroad is strained to breaking or broke. The US credit crisis trickles down to bond markets world wide. No country is too small to remain unaffected. Investors in New Zealand, for example, have this month complained that their interest payments have been suspended, the result of fall-out from the US credit crisis. It would appear that there is no where to run, no where to hide.

Moody's reports that "spending" threatens US ratings. Nevermind --Bush will simply balance the books upon the backs of those who can least afford it. Social Security recipients! The issue points up the endemic, perhaps genetic inability of GOP-types to think clearly. GOP profligacy will most certainly break Social Security but the GOP, as are their wont, will blame Social Security. The real culprit is, of course, the Pentagon, a fatted cow regularly milked by the sycophantic defense contractors who fight to suckle the Pentagon teat!

There is nothing wrong with Social Security, but the GOP can be depended upon to break it. Social Security is, in fact, government's only success. It turns a profit, called by critics a "liability". Of course it's a liability by definition because it is money owed to those who paid into it! Elementary accounting! Leave it to a gopper to turn a plus into a negative. Leave it to a gopper to demonize the government's only success story.

As evidence of an imminent collapse, FEMA can be counted on to activate a vast web of concentration camps complete with armed military personnel to keep the "vast unwashed" non-GOP throng in line. These concentration camps look quite a lot like Gitmo or the corporate prisons in Bush's Texas. They are intended to "manage" the population of US citizens in the event of a "terrorist" attack which the GOP can be counted on to manufacture and exploit. That such plans exist is a verifiable fact. Check out: Operation Northwoods , the Pentagon's seditious, treasonous plan to blow up a ship in Guantanamo Bay and blame a civilian uprising, large-scale dissent, or an insurrection against the government.

Meanwhile, The Patriot Act has made a terrorist of anyone who dares to disagree with Bush's imperious and illogical definitions of everything. The US Senate has conspired with the criminal Bush to ban habeas corpus, a move necessary to populate a gulag of Bushco concentration camps. The congress gave Bush sole authority to declare martial law and suspend habeas corpus. This heinous, venal and illegitimate administration will simply ignore the Posse Comitatus Act to enforce its decrees with military force.
In a stealth maneuver, President Bush has signed into law a provision which, according to Senator Patrick Leahy (D-Vermont), will actually encourage the President to declare federal martial law (1). It does so by revising the Insurrection Act, a set of laws that limits the President's ability to deploy troops within the United States.

The Insurrection Act (10 U.S.C.331 -335) has historically, along with the Posse Comitatus Act (18 U.S.C.1385), helped to enforce strict prohibitions on military involvement in domestic law enforcement. With one cloaked swipe of his pen, Bush is seeking to undo those prohibitions.

Public Law 109-364, or the "John Warner Defense Authorization Act of 2007" (H.R.5122) (2), which was signed by the commander in chief on October 17th, 2006, in a private Oval Office ceremony, allows the President to declare a "public emergency" and station troops anywhere in America and take control of state-based National Guard units without the consent of the governor or local authorities, in order to "suppress public disorder."

President Bush seized this unprecedented power on the very same day that he signed the equally odious Military Commissions Act of 2006. In a sense, the two laws complement one another. One allows for torture and detention abroad, while the other seeks to enforce acquiescence at home, preparing to order the military onto the streets of America. Remember, the term for putting an area under military law enforcement control is precise; the term is "martial law."
-- Bush Moves Toward Martial Law, Frank Morales, Information Liberation

The US economy is broken and faces imminent and total collapse. The US is bankrupt --morally and financially. Given the eventual and horrible outcomes, it is hard not to conclude that Bush and his co-conspirators deliberately embarked upon a program of profligate spending and wars of naked aggression in order to bring about this result.
Since the New Deal, Republicans have been on the wrong side of every issue of concern to ordinary Americans; Social Security, the war in Vietnam, equal rights, civil liberties, church- state separation, consumer issues, public education, reproductive freedom, national health care, labor issues, gun policy, ampaign-finance reform, the environment and tax fairness. No political party could remain so consistently wrong by accident. The only rational conclusion is that, despite their cynical "family values" propaganda, the Republican Party is a criminal conspiracy to betray the interests of the American people in favor of plutocratic and corporate interests, and absolutist religious groups.
--GOP Evil Bastards

Well, perhaps I was not the first to call the GOP what it is. For years, I have warned that the GOP is not a political party; it is a criminal conspiracy, a crime syndicate, for which there is probable cause to imprison its entire leadership.

I am reminded of New Orleans. Normal people looked at New Orleans and saw a humanitarian disaster about which this government did not give a shit! Bush and the GOP, however, looked at the flood waters covering venerable old neighborhoods and saw a new Disneyland which would rise up above the waves! God Bless the Child that's got his own, but may God damn the gopper who exploits a tragedy for personal and party gain! How many, I wonder, have felt betrayed by the country they loved?

[conley]

i didnt believe that part about chinese nuclear subs until i read this (i dont read the weekly standard i just googled looking for the news story)

Red China & Red Lines

Bill Gertz reported yesterday on high-level discussions between U.S. and Chinese military officials over an incident that occurred in the western Pacific on October 27, 2006. Gertz was the first to report the incident in which a Chinese Song class submarine surfaced not more than 5 miles from the USS Kitty Hawk. The submarine remained undetected by the carrier and the accompanying warships until after it surfaced.

From Gertz:

    The admiral in charge of the U.S. Pacific Fleet pressed Chinese military leaders to explain why an armed submarine challenged a U.S. aircraft carrier in the western Pacific by sailing within five miles of the warship, U.S. defense officials said.

    The Chinese responded by claiming the Song-class submarine that surfaced near the USS Kitty Hawk on Oct. 27 was there by accident, and that it did not shadow the warship before making its presence known, the officials said.

    Defense officials familiar with reports of closed-door military meetings in Beijing, Shanghai and Zhanjiang privately doubted the Chinese explanations and said it is more likely the Song-class diesel electric submarine was practicing anti-aircraft carrier operations.

When Gertz originally reported the incident, he spoke with Richard Fisher, a Chinese military specialist with the International Assessment and Strategy Center "who called the submarine incident alarming. 'Given the long range of new Chinese sub-launched anti-ship missiles and those purchased from Russia . . . It will likely happen again, only because Chinese submarine captains of 40 to 50 new modern submarines entering their navy will want to test their mettle against the 7th Fleet.'"

Other experts on the Chinese military have warned that such provocations have an alarming potential to spiral into a major confrontation between the United States and China. Larry Wortzel, chairman of the U.S.-China Economic and Security Review Commission and a leading expert on Chinese military policy, spoke on China's military ambitions in space at the National Press Club in November. (A transcript of the event is available in pdf here.) Wortzel spoke specifically about the need to avoid a repeat of this latest incident:

    With respect to the goal the PLA has set of attacking a U.S. aircraft carrier battle group at sea, we don’t know, from their writings, whether their war plans--believe it or not, we all have war plans--are for a conventional, a nuclear or a high-altitude electro-magnetic pulse burst. But the PLA sees the goal of attacking a deployed American carrier battle group as realistic and achievable. Think of the implications of that! The Enterprise docked in Norfolk just before Thanksgiving and there are 5,000 people on the Enterprise alone. The casualties at Pearl Harbor reached only 2,400. The World Trade Center wasn’t much more than 2,400. Thus, when PLA officers routinely talk about being able to attack and sink an American aircraft carrier, they aren’t thinking really hard about what comes back at them after that.

    I would argue that one of the implications of what seems to be serious research and writing in China is that the United States ought to be engaged in equally serious defense talks with the senior PLA leaders on what the red lines are in warfare. The anti-satellite programs that I talked about affect our strategic warning. The Chinese need to understand that we are very sensitive about interference with our strategic warning and about the ability of the United States to gather indications of hostility. When another nation interferes with that capability, we tend to take that as an indication that the nation may want to attack us. If you have been in the strategic warning system awhile, you know that the United States talked to the Soviets about this at great length. We still talk to the Russians about it. Senior American defense and foreign policy leaders have not had this dialogue with the Chinese. The PLA won’t even get serious about a dialogue with the Pacific commander about naval incidents at sea, to make sure that the next time a Song submarine broaches the surface, it doesn’t do it under the Kitty Hawk carrier battle group and bump into it. The PLA has avoided such discussions despite repeated requests from the U.S., and we need to talk to them about these matters.

Gertz's reporting makes clear that the Chinese are still unwilling to engage in a serious dialogue over how to avoid a future confrontation at sea or in space, where the potential for unintended consequences is even greater.

Posted by Michael Goldfarb at 11:20 AM | Permalink | E-mail the author | E-mail article

http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/2007/01/red_china_red_lines.asp

scary!

[Mr. Dirlewanger]

China can't afford a war with the US and vice versa. Then again, cool, rational minds don't always prevail. I didn't believe that either and was going to look it up later but Conley saved me the trouble.

[conley]

China can't afford a war with the US and vice versa. Then again, cool, rational minds don't always prevail. I didn't believe that either and was going to look it up later but Conley saved me the trouble.

definitely and im sure neither wants a war with the other...just this potential 'dogfighting' makes me a bit nervous as accidents do happen and especially when craft just appear out of nowhere as this chinese sub apparently did

there have been military mishaps between the two nations before however (like when the us 'accidentally' bombed the chinese embassy in yugoslavia), so hopefully if something did happen it could be resolved through diplomatic channels. otherwise the cockroaches will inherent the earth.

[Mr. Dirlewanger]

China can't afford a war with the US and vice versa. Then again, cool, rational minds don't always prevail. I didn't believe that either and was going to look it up later but Conley saved me the trouble.

definitely and im sure neither wants a war with the other...just this potential 'dogfighting' makes me a bit nervous as accidents do happen and especially when craft just appear out of nowhere as this chinese sub apparently did

there have been military mishaps between the two nations before however (like when the us 'accidentally' bombed the chinese embassy in yugoslavia), so hopefully if something did happen it could be resolved through diplomatic channels. otherwise the cockroaches will inherent the earth.

It will have to be otherwise yeah...it's all about the cockroaches.

[AC]

I'd really like to see all the candidates for POTUS debate economics instead of another repetition of myriad security fantasies.

I wonder too, if they would ignore Ron Paul.

[Gunit Hussein Sangh]

China doesn't need to start a war with us. All they have to do is stop loaning us money and sell the bonds they currently have.

Thanks to georgies supreme leadership abilities in borrowing so much money to pay for his tax cuts for the have-mores and his glorious war of choice in Iraq ... the chinese's action would tank the dollar and overnight our economy would collapse.

AC and Conley -- Thanks for posting those articles .. they were interesting reading but AC surely you jest -- the republicans debating the economy To them the "fundamentals" are sound and the only thing that is needed is more tax cuts for the rich, cuz that's worked so well in creating jobs over the last seven years.