Biofuels under attack as world food prices soar

[spunkloaf]

I'm having trouble understanding your points altogether, less refuting them.

[Peter1469]

What is the threat of alien labor?

For one, alien labor artificially depresses wages. 

[gorknoids]

AND raids the national coffers of health care, educational and housing dollars.

[Peter1469]

AND raids the national coffers of health care, educational and housing dollars.

Yes, that is true.  Many hositals have closed due to providing free healthcare to illegals. 

[spunkloaf]

I commend hospitals that provide free health care--but not to the point where they need to close.

[SDML]

What is the threat of alien labor?

I’ve gone on at length about the threat Third World immigration poses to the West in terms of increasing balkanization, a racial spoils system, crime and increasing social unrest, a loss of Western identity, and ultimately our dispossession.

I was not thinking in terms of economics.

Depends on what you mean by "balkanization" I suppose, but I don't necessarily think that is such a bad idea. There has been an increasing concentration (read: centralization) of power in this country that is, to my mind, a negative trend. Now, if by "balkanization" you mean fragmentation along, say, racial or religious lines, then I would agree that this is a bad thing. However, I don;t see why immigration in general or alien labor would increase such fragmentation. People always say that...until the 2nd generation assimilates.

I have a hard time buying the rest of your argument, though. Loss of wester identity due to immigrants from just south of the border? America is a melting pot and always has been. Every generation has feared immigration and hailed it as the end of American civilization, and every generation has been wrong.

Peter's argument is, to my mind, mildly more convincing (artificially depresses wages), but only superficially. Americans keep fighting for higher minimum wages & mandatory benefits but then cry when biz ships labor overseas (does this count as alien labor?), ignoring that they've artificially increased wages (along with our propped-up artificially increased land values and the like).

The biggest problem with immigration is that we "closed the loop" in an attempt to keep US dollars here, and placed immigrant labor in a nasty position of trying to jump both ways repeatedly (where the odds are against you) or bring along the whole family and stay (where you chance of success is better). Then we act surprised by the results.

[they call me MR. GRUMPY god damn it!]

depends on what you mean by balkanization   i mean maybe you refer to the positive outcomes of balkanization   all you have to fear is fear itself, swallowing a third world country, without respect for our sovereignty or ability to assimilate... okay so maybe there really isn't a historical equivalent to what we are seeing now, if only we would reopen the loop, yeah that's it reopen the loop.  people come, people go you'll be surprised by the results   but hell don't worry be happy    

[Peter1469]

Americans keep fighting for higher minimum wages & mandatory benefits but then cry when biz ships labor overseas (does this count as alien labor?), ignoring that they've artificially increased wages (along with our propped-up artificially increased land values and the like).

First, outsourcing is a separate issue.

Second, minimum wages and mandatory benefits won by unions do artificially increase wages.  This however, is only related to the topic at hand because it makes illegal labor more attractive. 

The clear fact is that illegal labor will depress wages because they will work for very low wages with little or no benefits.  Additionally the simple increase in supply of labor would decrease wages (over time) even if illegals were paid the same as an American laborer. 

[SDML]

Peter,

1) True, outsourcing is a different issue. Just wondered if Mr. D was including that in his use of the term "alien labor". That said, one can't discuss all this without eventually looking at the various motivations for companies that outsource.

2) True, artificially high wages & bennies do make illegal labor more attractive, which is part of my point.

But to say "the clear fact is that illegal labor will depress wages..." and ignore that the wages are already artificially high ignores half of the issue. Now, while an increase in the labor pool will, in fact, decrease the need for biz to pay as well for unskilled labor over time (biz no longer has to compete for workers, etc.), your statement assumes an increase in the labor pool and a stagnation of growth.

America survived the Italian menace, the Chinese menace, the Irish menace...we'll do just fine with the Mexican menace. We'd do better, however, if we embraced immigration instead of trying to selectively close doors.

[Mr. Dirlewanger]

What is the threat of alien labor?

I’ve gone on at length about the threat Third World immigration poses to the West in terms of increasing balkanization, a racial spoils system, crime and increasing social unrest, a loss of Western identity, and ultimately our dispossession.

I was not thinking in terms of economics.

Depends on what you mean by "balkanization" I suppose, but I don't necessarily think that is such a bad idea. There has been an increasing concentration (read: centralization) of power in this country that is, to my mind, a negative trend. Now, if by "balkanization" you mean fragmentation along, say, racial or religious lines, then I would agree that this is a bad thing. However, I don;t see why immigration in general or alien labor would increase such fragmentation. People always say that...until the 2nd generation assimilates.

I have a hard time buying the rest of your argument, though. Loss of wester identity due to immigrants from just south of the border? America is a melting pot and always has been. Every generation has feared immigration and hailed it as the end of American civilization, and every generation has been wrong.

Peter's argument is, to my mind, mildly more convincing (artificially depresses wages), but only superficially. Americans keep fighting for higher minimum wages & mandatory benefits but then cry when biz ships labor overseas (does this count as alien labor?), ignoring that they've artificially increased wages (along with our propped-up artificially increased land values and the like).

The biggest problem with immigration is that we "closed the loop" in an attempt to keep US dollars here, and placed immigrant labor in a nasty position of trying to jump both ways repeatedly (where the odds are against you) or bring along the whole family and stay (where you chance of success is better). Then we act surprised by the results.

By balkanization I meant fragmentation along racial lines. This is already the reality of American life and it can and will only increase with larger numbers of non-White immigrants. This is inevitable and is not debatable. Furthermore, White immigrants became indistinguishable from natives in terms of income and education within one or two generations. I have already conceded before on this forum that it is a little too soon to tell about Mexican immigration but the signs are not good and we will very likely have a large and permanent Hispanic underclass on our hands very similar to the Black underclass we struggle with now. . You really don’t see the problems inherent in the migration of tens of millions of people from a country where the average IQ is 87?

Most Westerners have no problem buying my argument. It is only some White Americans who put a happy face on their dispossession.

[Mr. Dirlewanger]

We survived the Italians and Irish because they are like us, SDML. As far as the Chinese are concerned you have noticed that many would rather remain in their on neighborhoods which pretty much amount to separate worlds. Would America survive the influx of 40 million Chinese? 

We don't have tyo close doors. Lets just pick less and better immigrants.

[wow]

SDML,

America survived the Italian menace, the Chinese menace, the Irish menace...we'll do just fine with the Mexican menace. We'd do better, however, if we embraced immigration instead of trying to selectively close doors.
Menace?
These groups were a threat to Americans?

[SDML]

Wow - "Menace" is how these groups were (inaccurately) perceived at various times within the history of the US. My point is that they were not, in fact, a menace at all and, by extension, neither is Mexican immigration (which is what everyone really means when they talk about "alien labor").

Mr. D - Thank you for you thoughtful replies. I'm on the way out and will have to respond late this evening or tomorrow, after I have time to properly consider your position.

[they call me MR. GRUMPY god damn it!]

no you guys have it all wrong, you only have to muse over all of the positive connotations attached to balkanization. sdml will explain the upside

[Mr. Dirlewanger]

Mr. D - Thank you for you thoughtful replies. I'm on the way out and will have to respond late this evening or tomorrow, after I have time to properly consider your position.

I was just letting my perspective be known as I have before on this and similar issues. I certainly don’t demand a response and I am not challenging anyone but if you are genuinely interested in continuing this then great. 

Beer and wings for me this evening so I may not respond to any serious comments until tomorrow.