Biofuels under attack as world food prices soar

[SDML]

Mr. D - You said: I have already conceded before on this forum that it is a little too soon to tell about Mexican immigration but the signs are not good and we will very likely have a large and permanent Hispanic underclass on our hands very similar to the Black underclass we struggle with now. . You really don’t see the problems inherent in the migration of tens of millions of people from a country where the average IQ is 87?

First, I'd put forth that we don't have a black underclass in this society - we have an underclass that includes black, white, and everyone else. Yes, the percentage of black Americans who fall beneath the poverty line (if that how you are defining "underclass") is greater than white Americans, but make no mistake about it being a purely black phenom. Now, if by "underclass" what you really mean (as most people do) is the poor who refuse to assimilate or work (generational welfare recipients, street-level criminals, drug/alcohol-dependent homeless, etc.), that has zero to do with race AND it's easy enough to fix...making it an irrelevant point with regards to immigration from Mexico (which, again, is exactly what everyone really means when they lament about "alien labor" and "illegal immigrations" and even legal "over-immigration").

Second, please provide proof of your assertion that Mexican immigrants have an average IQ of 87.

Mr. D : Most Westerners have no problem buying my argument. It is only some White Americans who put a happy face on their dispossession.

I don't care one wit what most people buy or not. Most people thought the earth was flat and most people think the dollar is backed by gold (assuming they give it any thought at all). "Appeal to mass" (a sub-set of "appeal to authority") is a classic fallacy, and holds no weight whatsoever.

D - We survived the Italians and Irish because they are like us, SDML. As far as the Chinese are concerned you have noticed that many would rather remain in their on neighborhoods which pretty much amount to separate worlds.

Like us? You assume that I'm a white Christian male? How wonderfully presumptuous. Or by "us" do you just mean white Christian males in general?

Be that as it may, your experience with the Chinese (rather stay together in their own neighborhoods) is dis-similar to my personal experience with a variety of immigrants who are my clients. Now, I will concede from the start that in order to retain my services one must have at least a small amount of disposable income, so perhaps I'm seeing only a very small piece of the pie (as, of course, both of us are if we're relying on personal experience in the stead of hard facts). That said, I have a clientele that includes folks from India, Cuba, Indonesia, China, Taiwan, Australia, Japan, the UK, Mexico, Puerto Rico, various countries in South America, old Eastern Bloc countries, Ethiopia, and more. Yes, many socialize primarily within "their neighborhoods" (i.e. - within their ethnic group of fellow immigrants), but they are also productive and integrated, and their children (who speak perfect English) will be fully assimilated by the fluid landscape that is American culture.

D - We don't have tyo close doors. Lets just pick less and better immigrants.

I don't agree. How do you choose "better"? By what criteria? Because they have a better education? Because they have money? Because they have a specific skill we really like that makes us look better in the Olympics or on the basketball court or the baseball field?

Perhaps what you, and those people who buy your arguments, fear is change in general. Change from a white Christian male dominated society to one where your "national" or "western identity" is lost (as if the national or western identity is white Christian male to begin with) or morphs into something not-quite-what-it-was (say, a melting pot?). I say this because, bluntly, it's exactly what you said. Your words: I’ve gone on at length about the threat Third World immigration poses to the West in terms of increasing balkanization, a racial spoils system, crime and increasing social unrest, a loss of Western identity, and ultimately our dispossession.

"Balkanization" (division along racial lines, for the purposes of this discussion) is only bad when it is accompanied by a lack of willingness to co-operate among the different groups. Racial self-grouping is programmed into your DNA and is expressed by tribal-think. It is why there is a Chinatown in SF & Chicago, for example, and why there is a Little Ethiopia in LA & DC. It is why you'd rather keep America white. No harm no foul, until one group becomes hostile towards the other - like by denying a group of fewer resources, for example, the same opportunities as a group with greater resources. By this I don;t mean we need to "level the playing field" economically. I'm talking about access to opportunity...like coming into this country to begin with, for example.

"Balkanization" only happens when both parties decide not to co-operate, and your stance on immigration I see as part of the very thing you decry.

You also assume by your above statement that immigrants are criminal, racists, and classist. I see little evidence of that, but when we turn that mirror on ourselves (especially by looking at the leaders we elect and their subsequent behaviors) the picture is rarely pretty.

[wow]

I'm having trouble understanding your points altogether, less refuting them.

I think you are being honest.
When a Democrat becomes President and you start paying higher income taxes to pay for the Trillion$$$ Democrats want to give to the UN for this global Socialization, then you will understand my points.
It's funny, people do not understand much until it hits their pocketbooks. 

Note: If you will notice, the media is priming you for this world wealth distribution. You see daily reports from African nations holding elections, fighting AIDS & malaria, fighting the Al Qaida, starvation, drought etc.... This takes us back to the Kyoto protocol and the global warming hoax.
Democrats spent $10 Billion on ethanol subsidies and now say it's starving people. lol

[wow]

SDML,

Yes, the percentage of black Americans who fall beneath the poverty line (if that how you are defining "underclass") is greater than white Americans, but make no mistake about it being a purely black phenom. Now, if by "underclass" what you really mean (as most people do) is the poor who refuse to assimilate or work (generational welfare recipients, street-level criminals, drug/alcohol-dependent homeless, etc.), that has zero to do with race AND it's easy enough to fix

Listen to Obama and other black community leaders speak about open dialogue concerning skin color.
Black poverty is no phenom, it's a way of life being taught by these black leaders.
It is easy to fix, change the message and lead by example.
My personal black and Hispanic friends are absolutely pissed at the community leaders that tell them they are not as good as crackers and therefore, should be compensated by crackers. They have this thing called "pride" and they work their asses off to support their families. They get 100% of my respect.

[Mr. Dirlewanger]

Apparently, you have considered my position and it offends you. I’m not sure why but I will respond as I am accustomed to.

The Black Underclass

Do you deny that Blacks do relatively poorly in US schools, are grossly overrepresented in the US prison system, and have embraced a counter-culture most recently manifested by Rev Wright? Furthermore, it is a perfectly relevant point not least because Hispanics (specifically Mexican mestizos) are also overrepresented in US prisons and are doing poorly in US schools. How long will it be before they too raise the standard of revolt? My guess is not long since they were already waving a foreign flag in our streets protesting our inhospitableness and our cultural elite seems intent on celebrating diversity.

My assertion regarding Mexican IQ was from IQ and the Wealth of Nations. It was a controversial book, no doubt. I’ll link to a Wiki entry after work. We have a weird filter here and I don’t want any HR problems.

Edit

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_the_Wealth_of_Nations

http://www.isteve.com/IQ_Table.htm

The appeal to the masses that wasn’t

I was simply stating a fact. Most Westerners believe that their identity is under assault and that it is only in the US that some Whites are afraid to even discuss the topic.   

“Like us? You assume that I'm a white Christian male? How wonderfully presumptuous. Or by "us" do you just mean white Christian males in general?”

When you know exactly what I mean why do you ask?

Chinese etc.

Do you deny that there are large Chinese neighborhoods that live what amounts to a separate existence? While we are on the topic let me ask if you would also deny that parts of the USA are chock full of unassimilated Mexicans? Moreover, would you deny that not only do these Mexicans have no intention of assimilating but are also encouraged not to? Mexican irredentism is already a concrete reality. What will it take to bring it home to you, SDML?

Look, there are plenty of immigrants who adjust and do very well in the US. I am not against immigration in general and I have not suggested or implied otherwise.

Who should we be looking for?

This should be obvious. Well educated and financially secure immigrants should make up the majority. Yes, skills should count in your favor.

Of course this society is a Western European one. The ideas that shaped this nation are purely European and the majority population has always been of European descent. That makes sense since the USA is a Western European nation. Why is it wrong for us to protect our heritage and birthright?

No, Balkanization is always bad and the way we are using the term for the purposes of this discussion is the way it is normally used. Balkanization can also be along religious or cultural lines.  Anyway, it happens everywhere. Greater diversity results in greater tension and strife. Why do you want this for the USA? I don’t care about why you think there is racial tension. The fact is that there is racial tension and you would only add fuel to the fire? No, SDML. I, for one, will not be cooperating. I’m sorry that you feel guilty about denying the world’s billions access to the USA and I hope you recover your sanity at some point. 

[gorknoids]

I commend hospitals that provide free health care--but not to the point where they need to close.

There is no such thing as "free health care". 

[spunkloaf]

yeah...

Well, my Grandpa was blessed to have gotten some free health care, so...
Sorry I have to disagree.  And you know what's funny?  He always drilled me that "Nothing in life is free."

A hospital in Ohio waived an entire five grand for him when he got very sick on a company drive.  They saved him that time, but he died later of cirrhosis.

My mother offered a suggestion to her employer to do a donation drive for that hospital, where the company matched the employees' donations.  The hospital received three thousand dollars from that.

What goes around comes around.

[Peter1469]

Spunk, the health care wasn’t free.  Someone paid those costs even if it wasn’t your family. 

[SDML]

Apparently, you have considered my position and it offends you.

I'm not sure "offends" is how I'd put it. I find it self-destructive.

I also find it mildly humorous that anyone would lament the loss of western identity - or more to the point, loss of American Identity - when we've chosen McCain on one side of the fence and Obama/Clinton on the other. It seems to me the American identity you long to preserve was lost when Hoover left office (not that Hoover, to my mind, embodied the "pull yourself up by your own bootstraps" mentality very well, but he did predict the destruction of the American work ethic if we slid into socialism under FDR).

Adding to the issue is that under your vision, those who don't need opportunity (financially stable & well-educated) get a free pass to the US, but those who lack money & education - in short, those who need opportunities they can't find in their home country - are denied access.

Here is an alternative model to ponder (greatly over-simplified for brevity): Open the borders to all who want to work. Remove legal obligations for, say, education & health-care and while you're at it, dismantle the welfare state. That alone weeds out those unwilling to work who are looking for a free ride.

You'll save a lot on fence/wall building (plus staffing, maintenance, surveillance, etc.) when folks can drive in. Then allow people to defend their property. Anyone trying to sneak in then has ill-intent, so feel free to shoot them.

[Mr. Dirlewanger]

I’m not quite sure how the Western identity I seek to preserve relates to McCain, Hoover, or any sort of “bootstraps” mentality? As far as socialism is concerned most Western nations are welfare states so it certainly isn’t creeping socialism that I fear. I made myself clear but you seem trapped in a materialist frame of mind.

Anyway, why do the financially stable and well-educated come here then if not for lack of opportunity at home? Grade school educated Mexicans come here because their country is hopelessly corrupt and they can’t find even the menial work they are looking for. Again, they should be denied wholesale access except under tightly controlled guest programs. The USA simply can not absorb the rest of the world. We should pick the best and brightest. In the other words, we should have a sensible immigration policy.

 Lastly, we both know the welfare isn’t going anywhere.

[Peter1469]

“Here is an alternative model to ponder (greatly over-simplified for brevity): Open the borders to all who want to work. Remove legal obligations for, say, education & health-care and while you're at it, dismantle the welfare state. That alone weeds out those unwilling to work who are looking for a free ride.”


This would suit me just fine.  But as Mr. D said, the welfare state isn’t going anywhere (maybe we could end it for non-citizens only…)  The less perfect answer is to tightly control how is allowed in: based upon our needs. 

[Mr. Dirlewanger]

“Here is an alternative model to ponder (greatly over-simplified for brevity): Open the borders to all who want to work. Remove legal obligations for, say, education & health-care and while you're at it, dismantle the welfare state. That alone weeds out those unwilling to work who are looking for a free ride.”


This would suit me just fine.  But as Mr. D said, the welfare state isn’t going anywhere (maybe we could end it for non-citizens only…)  The less perfect answer is to tightly control how is allowed in: based upon our needs. 

Bold type mine. Agreed.