Fall back, men, Afghanistan is a nasty war we can never win

[Gunit Hussein Sangh]

Heck of job georgie

The American secretary of state, Condoleezza Rice, flies to Britain this week to meet a crisis entirely of London and Washington’s creation. They have no strategy for the continuing occupation of Afghanistan. They are hanging on for dear life and praying for something to turn up. Britain is repeating the experience of Gordon in Khartoum, of the Dardanelles, Singapore and Crete, of politicians who no longer read history expecting others to die for their dreams of glory.

Every independent report on the Nato-led operation in Afghanistan cries the same message: watch out, disaster beckons. Last week America’s Afghanistan Study Group, led by generals and diplomats of impeccable credentials, reported on “a weakening international resolve and a growing lack of confidence”. An Atlantic Council report was more curt: “Make no mistake, Nato is not winning in Afghanistan.” The country was in imminent danger of becoming a failed state.

A clearly exasperated Robert Gates, the American defence secretary, has broken ranks with the official optimism and committed an extra 3,000 marines to the field, while sending an “unusually stern” note to Germany demanding that its 3,200 troops meet enemy fire. Germany, like France, has rejected that plea. Yet it is urgent since the Canadians have threatened to withdraw from the south if not relieved. An equally desperate Britain is proposing to send half-trained territorials to the front, after its commanders ignored every warning that the Taliban were the toughest fighters on earth.


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/simon_jenkins/article3295340.ece

[Mr. Dirlewanger]

"Khartoum, of the Dardanelles, Singapore and Crete..."

Is this guy serious? How many men does Britain have there? A few thousand? Is this  smajor commitment? Is this what has become of Britain's martial spirit?

Anyway, I don't why this fiction about an unconquerable Afghanistan persists. Soviet "brutalism" was successful and only our involvement by proxy saved Afghanistan from Soveit domination.

[AC]

Our "involvement" was to support Osama and other freedom fighters, but the Soviet State would have failed anyway, as the system was totally decrepid.

[Mr. Dirlewanger]

Our "involvement" was to support Osama and other freedom fighters, but the Soviet State would have failed anyway, as the system was totally decrepid.

The Soviet system certainly was doomed. I agree. That isn't the point though. The brutality exhibited by the Soviets and by the new "Russian Empire" just recently in Chechnya works. It's a matter of a will to destroy and little else.

I'm not trying to justify it.

[AC]

Some have estimated 600,000, even a million dead Iraqis, Dilewanger.

What's the difference?

[Mr. Dirlewanger]

Some have estimated 600,000, even a million dead Iraqis, Dilewanger.

What's the difference?

Wouldn't some have a reason to grossly exaggerate those figures?

The Russians won in Chechyna. It is clear example of what can be accomlished if a power conducts itself with utter ruthlessness. I'm not sure why this bothers you so much? I'm also not sure why it always has to come back to Iraq. You don't seriously believe the US isn't holding any punches, do you? We crushed the insurgency in Souh Vietnam using methods we aren't proud of today (some of us). We won't operate the same way in Iraq. The public would not accept it.

[AC]

I rather think there are some more likely interested in suppressing such figures in truth.

As for the rest of it, I don't get your meaning.

[Mr. Dirlewanger]

I rather think there are some more likely interested in suppressing such figures in truth.

As for the rest of it, I don't get your meaning.

When you said the Soviet system would have failed I thought you meant their efforts in Afghanistan would fail with or without US involvement. I don't think that's true. If you just meant that the SU was on it's way out then we just misunderstood one another.

My point was that Afghanistan is not some unconquerable place. That's nonsense.

[AC]

You want to conquer Afghanistan?

[Mr. Dirlewanger]

You want to conquer Afghanistan?

Nope. I just commneted on the article.

[AC]

I think we should get the hell out of there, pronto.

[Mr. Dirlewanger]

I think we should get the hell out of there, pronto.

Iraq has taken up the headlines. You really don't hear much about it anymore. I'm inclined to agree that  the effort to create a democracy there isn't looking good. In Iraq, I think we are obligated to stay for now but Afghanistan is a moonscape.

[conley]

Some have estimated 600,000, even a million dead Iraqis, Dilewanger.

What's the difference?

Wouldn't some have a reason to grossly exaggerate those figures?

The Russians won in Chechyna. It is clear example of what can be accomlished if a power conducts itself with utter ruthlessness. I'm not sure why this bothers you so much? I'm also not sure why it always has to come back to Iraq. You don't seriously believe the US isn't holding any punches, do you? We crushed the insurgency in Souh Vietnam using methods we aren't proud of today (some of us). We won't operate the same way in Iraq. The public would not accept it.

i agree with the d...the us remains committed to these 'clean' wars with the 'surgical strikes' etc...if the us military unleashed its full arsenal of weapons there would be little left other than a black smudge. of course, there are also a lot of reasons (political, security, economic, etc) for not going down that route. it's a balance of how much force to use, but thus far it sure seems like a stalemate.

[conley]

I think we should get the hell out of there, pronto.

i think we should get in there, get Osama, and string him up by his gonads

(damn i'm channeling homie again  )

[Gunit Hussein Sangh]

This is from memory and therefore may be wrong, but I believe the turning point in Afghanistan was when we supplied the afhani's shoulder SAM's that the russians had no defense against.

Since Mr. D brought up Chechnya, I decided to read up a bit about it. For those who may have been more interested in american idol than recent history .. here's a link that describes the conflict:

http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/Chechnya.asp

As I was reading thru this ... a few paragraphs really stood out in the Current Conflict section (instead of posting them here, you can click thru and read it). Yes we would *win* in iraq and afghanistan if we employ these techniques ... but if we do this ... are we any better than osama?