Following our own script, we've weakened America

[Peter1469]

Well then let's be glad that humanity is above that.

Yes, values and morals are what make humanity above that sort of behavior.  When you try to remove those values and morals you will get that sort of behavior. 

[spunkloaf]

No, remove common sense--and you get that behavior.

[Peter1469]

No, remove common sense--and you get that behavior.

Why do you say that?  If a society has no values or morals and they believe the world is overcrowded to the extent that their society is threatened common sense would dictate that thinning the heard would be necessary.  http://www.healthfreedomusa.org/?p=344

[gorknoids]

It's truly astonishing how conservatives continue to believe that things were so terrible in the 90's. The stock market tripled, 22 million jobs were created, income adjusted for inflation rose, debt was actually being paid off ... and that was all bad.

Now the stock market has barely risen 2000 points in 7 years, 8 million jobs created (probably less by the time dear leader leaves office), income adjust for inflation stagnant or decreasing, debt spiraling out  of control ... and conservatives call this strong fundamentals 

You can do stuff like that when you not only jack up taxes, but institute a retroactive tax.  Then you slash the DOD budget, let DotCom futures dictate the market, and don't spend a red cent on things such as the levees in NOLA or bridges in Minnesota or the terrorists who brought us 9/11, and you can make bad numbers look good. 

[spunkloaf]

No, remove common sense--and you get that behavior.

Why do you say that?  If a society has no values or morals and they believe the world is overcrowded to the extent that their society is threatened common sense would dictate that thinning the heard would be necessary.  http://www.healthfreedomusa.org/?p=344

10,000 years ago, we were a herd.  We're more like a virus today.

I'm just saying, values and morals are sewn within.  They don't really need to be taught, rather observed.  I think that, like so many good things, the concept of "values and morals" has been spun to teach people how to efficiently reject one another.  I blame this on religion and power, but that is me.

When I hear talk about enforcing "values and morals" I immediately go into defensive mode, because I feel that mine are just fine.  I believe everybody has a sense of what is right and wrong, they just don't care anymore.  That is the sad part.

If half the American people actually cared about what is going on outside their everyday lives, this board alone would be overloaded with user bandwidth.

But petey, I do understand the concept of morals and values. I just don't believe there is a need to anchor ourselves into one set of them.  That is a step towards fascism, and away from freedom.  Just look at all the blokes these days who reject gays just because they think differently.

The only universal moral, I think, should be to do well for yourself, and do well for others.  Blunt, trite, but true.

[Peter1469]

I get where you are coming from now.  I don’t think that values and morals should be imposed either.  I do think, however, that when you observe values and morals in the US you will be influenced by religious thought more than you realize.  As has been discussed in other threads the US has a Christian- influenced culture.  You really cannot truly separate our values and morals from that- at least not to a great degree. 

You say be well to yourself and well to others.  What do you mean by well?  I expect that it will be hard for you to articulate that without the definition looking a lot like what one religious tradition or another would consider to be the basis for values and morals. 

[spunkloaf]

That is true.  There is no denying that religion has played a part in my moral upbringing.  After all, I used to be Catholic.

I am afraid that if everybody gets on one big moral bandwagon, that they can be easily manipulated to reject things or people simply because they are TAUGHT to, rather than learning from their own observation.  To me that is mind control, and I do see it everywhere today.  Parents all over are teaching their kids to hate people.  They teach their kids to be afraid of certain people.  They teach their kids that they belong to a better part of society, and that the other side of society is wrong and evil.  They don't do this all directly, but simply through talk and action.  Kids are excellent observers.

But I don't think personal morals are bad at all, goodness no!  As long as they are personal, and people are encouraged to find truth for themselves.  That is the only way, I believe, that we can efficiently advance from this point in humanity without dividing ourselves.

Man, if there was an easier way to mix freedom with order...

[Peter1469]

We are on the same sheet of music.  I too dislike when people support their bad behavior with what they call their religious values. 

[spunkloaf]

Yes, precisely.

Take responsibility for your own actions.  Do not put it on God's shoulders.  He has enough to deal with.

[Peter1469]

Yes, precisely.

Take responsibility for your own actions.  Do not put it on God's shoulders.  He has enough to deal with.

If he is paying any attention.  If I were god, you certainly wouldn't be on my radar.   

[spunkloaf]

It is impossible for God to interfere with anything after his first moment of creation.  Otherwise he refutes himself, which contradicts the universal idea that he is perfect.

I have a step aunt who is very religious, but also naive.  Her life is falling apart right now, and she keeps saying that God is going to save her from it--all the while, she does nothing to help herself.  She is on her third DWI now since her son died at the age of seventeen by unknown causes.  She really needs to wake up, big time.

Not on your radar petey?  What kind of radar is it: targeting evil, or targeting good?

[gorknoids]

I don't believe that God made man in his own image, just like I don't believe in that whole "Big Bang" bullshit.  Humans lack the intelligence and the frame of reference to comprehend the history and the origins and the scope of this planet, let alone that of the universe.  The people who wrote the bible didn't even have pencils, and we've only recently landed probes on Mars.  We don't even register.  All we have is good and evil. Love and hatred. Progress and loss.
     I choose the former in all three categories and support them unflinchingly. 
     
     

[spunkloaf]

Hmm.  Einstein would disagree, as with many scientists, about the big bang--but you are right, it is as far only scientific hypothesis.  Plus, there are mathematical blunders that contradict the big bang theory.  But it is widely accepted among the science community as the beginning of our universe.  My question is, what happened BEFORE the big bang?   It goes even deeper than we can ever imagine.  In that sense, we will never find the spark, will, or God that created it all.  You have a good point...we are way too young, even now.

Soon we will need to learn how to think outside of space and time in order to reach our goal.  It may seem that I'm getting "twilight zone" on you, but things are pointing to that as the only way to describe existence.

However, they did discover black holes--something Einstein predicted in his equations about special relativity.  People thought it was ridiculous: tiny masses with gravity so powerful that even light, a massless particle, cannot escape?  Well...they're there, as it turns out.  In fact, there are super massive black holes at the centers of galaxies and that's what makes them spin; there's even one in our own galaxy!  (I find science fascinating, sorry if I seem over-enthused)

I'm not one to say that God made man in his own image, rather I take it as a metaphor--that our actions paint an image of God in some respect.  It's a theory in progress...

[Peter1469]

I'm not one to say that God made man in his own image, rather I take it as a metaphor--that our actions paint an image of God in some respect.  It's a theory in progress...

That is interesting.